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The Street

Created 3/23/08 by Dave Hoover



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Michael Hunger

Michael Hunger

19 posts

3/23/08

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Dave,

what exactly is the target audience for the book? I don't know if a lot of the university / college graduates or people working in software development for a while but still being in their beginnings agree to be an apprentice and would take all the important advice you supply here.

What about apprentices in ancient times. They were the youths just leaving their families and taking an apprenticeship at a craftsman's. So this is quite a difference. We have all this education (school, highschool, college, university, work) but it didn't work out in creating professional software developers?

I personally had this experience as well. All the years at the university were a great time (students life) but didn't help me that much with the experience and knowledge I need to be a professional software developer.

So whom do you target with this book? Professionals that read it and take the advice and teach it to their peers and "apprentices"? I struggle a lot with the attitude of the software developers that are not the ones enthusiastic about their profession and eager to continue improving. But these were the ones in need of your advice.




Michael Hunger

Michael Hunger

19 posts

3/23/08

Public

Dave,

unfortunately there is no way to comment at your redsquirrel forum (at least I haven't found one). So I put my comments here:


Thanks for the interesting insights. Here are some more questions, regarding the details:

* How did the relationships between the apprentices and experienced craftsmen evolve? What were the pitfalls and what went well?

* What about the physical layout of your workspace in the studio? Does it have an Alexandrian quality?

* What did you learn from your apprentices?

* You wrote that the book won't be about creating the environment for apprentices to flourish. But at Obtiva you did exactly that. What are your experiences (+  other's stories) about beeing an apprentice out in the field with less support by the company or workplace?

* Did you have a kind of curriculum or was it the practising/pairing at real world projects that did the job?

* How much did your background in social work influence the success of the apprenticeship-program?

* Which roles were the apprentices given? Just being apprentices to someone or also full fledged developers in your client's projects?

* How did you manage the learning process, and did you apply the patterns described in this book and to which success?

* How much does the success of your apprentices depend on the qualities of their mentors?

* Which degree of freedom (as of Paul Grahams (You weren't meant to have a boss)) did they have? Could they freely experiment, learn and try the stuff they wanted?

And lots more :)

Michael


Dave Hoover

Dave Hoover

15 posts

3/24/08

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Michael, the target audience is newcomers to software development (recent grads, high schoolers, career-switchers).  I do hope that the book will serve to inspire the more experienced software developers who have lost their excitement for developing software, but the book is written solely toward newcomers.  If we write it well, (that's a big if) I think there are a lot of lessons here that trascend software development.


Dave Hoover

Dave Hoover

15 posts

3/24/08

Public

Michael, wow!  That's a lot of questions!  I'll provide answers to the questions for which I have an immediate reponse...

What about the physical layout of your workspace in the studio? Does it have an Alexandrian quality?  No, I would not claim that it has an Alexandrian quality.  It's a war-room (open space) with a window that we can open and white boards on the walls.  We have full control of the room so we've reorganized it a few times as the number of people in the office has risen and fallen.  We will be moving to a larger (and better) office soon, so I'm hoping to apply some of Alexander's principles (I actually brought his book with me today).


What did you learn from your apprentices?  There is no possible way I could write this all down after working with the caliber of people I've been with over the last 12 months.  All I can say is that learning is our fundamental activity and that I guarantee I have learned at least as much as our apprentices during that time.


What are your experiences (+  other's stories) about beeing an apprentice out in the field with less support by the company or workplace?  This book is the answer to this question.  As soon as I read McBreen's book in 2002, I categorized myself as an apprentice which reframed my career and set me on the path that I am still walking, now as a journeyman.


Did you have a kind of curriculum or was it the practising/pairing at real world projects that did the job?  The vast majority of the learning was done through pairing with them or guiding them (or sadly, nearly abandoning them) on real world projects.  We do have a weekly mid-day Geekfest where we get together with a projector and do code reviews, watch peepcasts, experiment with new technologies, and share insights.  The content of these Geekfests are team-directed and not prescribed by anyone in particular.


How much did your background in social work influence the success of the apprenticeship-program?  I can't really say hom much my background has influenced our apprenticeship program.  I can say that I have been thankful for my background on every team I've ever worked on.  There are many similarities between family dynamics and team dynamics.


Which roles were the apprentices given? Just being apprentices to someone or also full fledged developers in your client's projects?  They were full-fledged developers on clients' projects.  I should mention that every apprentice we've hired has had enough technical know-how to at least make a marginal contribution on day one.


How did you manage the learning process, and did you apply the patterns described in this book and to which success?  The only learning process I can manage is my own.  The patterns in this book can only be applied by the people doing the learning, not be their leaders.  For instance, I cannot force one of our apprentices to Expose his Ignorance, but I can comment on it when he does.


Which degree of freedom (as of Paul Grahams (You weren't meant to have a boss)) did they have? Could they freely experiment, learn and try the stuff they wanted?  I'd say way walk a pretty fine line here.  It helps that we develop mostly in Rails, which means we're doing a lot of greenfield and/or we have the autonomy to choose our own tools and libraries.  But ultimately we're choosing stuff based on value to our clients rather than experimentating purely for learning's sake.


Michael Hunger

Michael Hunger

19 posts

3/25/08

Public

Dave,

thanks for the elaborated full disclosure response. Now you have this information distributed at different places :).

The Alexandrian books are so full of wisdom (architecture being only a small part of it) that the things we can learn from him have a great influence on how one sees the world and the people within. Especially regarding the power, source, applicability, and disuse of pattern(languages) and evolving things. So happy reading.

So you had already high-profile apprentices a bit unlike the target audience for the book?

What would be great in the book is bringing the agile values and the principles behind the craftsmanship together, creating a dense network of relationships (and naming/referencing them). Also having an eye on Kathy's Passionate Users (learning experiences) helps to provide approaches for the apprentices to facilitate and improve their learning.

One post of her that I found quite interesting in this regard was the one regarding "mediocrity by improving many areas of knowledge". How do you see a craftsman? More as an generalist having a broad understanding of the domain and the ability to dig deeper where neccessary or having just a basic understanding of the domain and some specialities where she really shines? What about diversification (learning from many journeymen / masters and by that transferring lots of knowledge, improving also their understanding and in the end surpassing the masters themselves (I know this last thing is not in the focus of the book).

What I also would really like to see in the book are more stories and lessons learned (good or bad) from your apprentices and perhaps those of other companies (object mentor?, etc.) as well.

What kind of learning culture does ThoughtWorks provide? Could you imagine having them a guild like craftsmanship program as well?


What I'm also interested in are the aspects Adewale has added to the patterns and approaches taught by the book. Unfortunately he didn't write anything in this collaborative space by now.


thanks a lot for all the information and passion you have and give

Michael


Adewale Oshineye

Adewale Oshineye

1 post

3/26/08

Public

Michael,
Thank you for all your questions and feedback.

I've taken a somewhat different path to Dave. I've lived according to an idea that Steve Pavlina outlined here: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/07/how-to-get-from-a-7-to-a-10/ This has lead me to change jobs whenever I felt that I was getting too comfortable. It's not the most profitable career strategy but it does take you to some interesting (work)places. I've spent a lot of time working in consultancies on projects in various countries. I think the years I've spent living out of a suitcase adds a certain amount of breadth to the book.

One of the things that makes this book special is that our influences and sources cover such a wide range. We've looked at books ranging from Kent Beck's Smalltalk Best Practice Patterns to Atul Gawande's Better. In fact if you want to have your beliefs about the room for improvement available in a field as supposedly settled as medicine then take a look at this Youtube video of Gawande's Google Tech Talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbNu6LY5sMY

Unlike Dave I don't have a studio or apprentices because my path is all about learning to live in that moment of transition from apprentice to journeyman. That's what I enjoy. I'm not completely selfish though so I try to leave footprints behind as I wander around learning things. At the moment I do this using delicious: http://del.icio.us/ade/craft but the book is part of a bigger attempt to repay the debt I owe to all those people who took the time to share what they'd learned.


Michael Hunger

Michael Hunger

19 posts

3/26/08

Public

Ade,

thanks for all the insights. The post by Steve is really an eye opener. I'm obviously stuck as well. So I'll have to change that. I think there are not many people that are not stuck in their lives, careers etc. Congratulations that you made the switch. What I find interesting is the physical metaphor of place, velocity and acceleration. So you're already at the point where you control the acceleration not only the velocity and direction of your development and are able to speed up. What about "unlearning" when switching paths, does it happen and what do you unlearn, is there a risk to loose too much context?

Drawing input from a lot of sources, putting them into context (within the pattern language - perhaps you should add more references to the sources?) is imho the best way to go. Having sources from personal experiences, thought leaders and stories of other people seems to be a right mixture. What I'd really like to see is a graphical representation of the pattern language (perhaps with one version annotated with the sources you draw from) with dependencies and positive/negative correlation of the patterns.

The video from Atul Gawande was also very interesting. Especially as many of the points he makes there are contained in the values and principles of the agile movement. But diligence is currently missing somehow. How do you put together the attention to detail and your fast path switching?

Thanks for all the resources and keep up the great work.

Michael


 

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